Template talk:Series Record
New template So what do people think of this? I think it would be far more logical to use a template than our standard bullet points. You'll see that I've also put 2017 series as default "did not enter", which will be handy in future series because rather than editing 250 robot pages to add it manually, we can just add it to the template until the show airs (at which point we'll have to edit 100 pages anyway). Its not perfect, but I think we should roll this out. Improvements welcome, but please check with me before editing the template. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 23:45, October 23, 2016 (UTC) :Visually, this template is an improvement on our current list of bullet points. I like it in that respect. However, I don't think that functionally, it will save us any time in the event of future series. Setting the default as "Did not enter" sounds perfect in our heads, but I'm not aware of a way to make that the case. Yes, right now, "Did not enter" is the default for the 2017 series, but it can't stay that way, otherwise no competing robot would be able to state that they entered. When we start changing the 2017 series line to "Entered with TR2" etc, the robots who didn't take part wouldn't keep their "Did not enter", it would change to nothing but a single apostrophe, as proven by my tests. Thus, we'd have to edit every page all over again, just like before. :As I said, this is an aesthetic improvement, so if we get a tenth series, this should 100% be the new standard of how we display the Series Record. Even if we don't get a tenth series, I still would not be opposed to this template overtaking the bullet points system, particularly if we find a good way to incorporate Robot Wars Extreme. But while I'm not opposed to rolling it out right now, I can't see anyone calling it a good use of their time, because this table unfortunately wouldn't stop us from having to edit every single competitor page all over again, every time a new series publicly reveals its competitors, unless a wiki coding expert can tell us how to make it so leaving a column blank defaults the text to "Did not enter" instead of an apostrophe, which may not even be possible. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 00:26, October 24, 2016 (UTC) ::Yeah at this stage I agree it doesn't save any time, and its not an urgent task, but I still think its something we should look at rolling out in the future for the aesthetic value. When we get enough information to start saying whose entering the 2017 series, its just a matter of editing the template to write " }" in place of "did not enter" and entering each robot bit by bit. It can probably wait a year. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 00:40, October 24, 2016 (UTC) :::But of course, if it's possible for us to make it so blanking a section makes it default to "Did not enter", then this would be perfect, and worth rolling out with immediate effect. I'm going to ask a Vanguard representative who helped us with other template specifics in the past and see if it's plausible. He'll need to edit this page, so I assume he has your blessing? [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 00:52, October 24, 2016 (UTC) :::Awesome, that's perfectly fine. Most of the coding on this wiki was done by me observing, copying and trial and error-ing, so an expert would be a wonderful input. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 00:59, October 24, 2016 (UTC) ::::I haven't herd back from TwoTailedFox, implying our fears may be true, but regardless I'll probably start use this in robots' series records when the 2017 competitors start getting confirmed. However for 2016 competitors who never attempted to enter the original series such as Eruption, I may just use the coding from scratch and just have a Series 1-7: Did not enter line. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 03:42, October 25, 2016 (UTC) :::::Let's not bold the text anymore. I've changed my mind on how that looks. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 04:01, October 25, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Fine by me, part of my reason for putting it on Eruption was to see it in context. If we did the template manually each time, perhaps we could've bolded the times a robot actually participated, and not bolded the Did not enter and F2Q lines, but that's beyond our capabilities on the set template. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 04:20, October 25, 2016 (UTC) ::::::That was also something I was thinking about. I'm sure there's a way to do all this stuff, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a while for TTF to get back to us. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 04:30, October 25, 2016 (UTC) :::::::By the way, the word "Heat" being omitted from Eruption's record was intentional. Nice as it looks, the episodes weren't called heats, so we can't express that liberty. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 04:40, October 25, 2016 (UTC) :::::::There needs to be something there to distinguish it from the final, because the "third place" particularly causes confusion. I think we can just call them heats, its a general enough word. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 04:56, October 25, 2016 (UTC) Trio Proposal TwoTailedFox sorted our issues with defaulting the Did not enters, so now we know there is a purpose to rolling out these templates with immediate effect, we should start the process. However, for a while now, the way we cover Extreme 1 and 2 in the Series Record has bothered me. On Team articles, we cover it, which looks awkward due to how different the words "Extreme 1" look in-between "Series 4" and "Series 5". That's probably why it's not covered on competitor articles, but then that leads to the problem of Extreme-exclusive robots having no Series Record at all, beyond their failure to qualify. Take Cataclysmic Variabot for example, that series record would imply they never even got on the show. So I wanted to include Robot Wars Extreme, but only on pages where it's actually relevant to the competitor, to avoid clutter. Also to avoid clutter, I figured we didn't need seven entire rows just saying "Did not enter" on pages like TR2 and Eruption, where their first qualification attempt was in 2016, and as the reboot is separate enough from the original run of the series, I felt that deserved its own template too. My solution was to make two more templates, besides this one. According to the way I've set these up, the vanilla "Series Record" template should be used for competitors which entered the original run of Robot Wars, and the reboot if applicable, but ''not Extreme. The new "Series Record EX" template should be used for robots when their team did compete in Extreme. "Series Record New" is designed for robots that only started attempting to qualify as of 2016. I've provided some context examples so people know what I mean: *Supernova - An example of "Series Record", as Team Trinity did not compete in Extreme *Bigger Brother - An example of "Series Record EX", as Bigger Brother itself competed in Extreme *Foxic - An example of "Series Record EX", where the team competed in Extreme, but not Foxic itself *TR2 - An example of "Series Record New", as TR2 had no involvement with the original run of the series. I'll update the example and description of the vanilla template on its template page if this is approved, switching it to Supernova and using bold in the right places. Can anyone see any problems with these templates, such as their names, or something else? Any personal preferences that these templates currently don't match? Do any of us simply not want these templates at all? If all is well and good, we're ready to roll out these three templates, but please offer opinions now before we get ahead of ourselves. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'''Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 19:42, October 25, 2016 (UTC) :The leaving out of Extreme has never bothered me, there's no one tournament that should be specified. All we could ever do is put "Entered" which is already obvious from the results box. There's plenty of space on the article to point out they competed in Extreme, I think we should just leave it as the new template and the vanilla template. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 22:16, October 25, 2016 (UTC) ::Actually, I didn't put "Entered" in my Bigger Brother example, I listed the events it took part in. Foxic was different because it wasn't Foxic itself that entered those Extreme events, hence the second example. I've updated the Series Record on Razer so you can better see what I intended. If the opinion is still to stick with the vanilla template even after realising that, then fine, though I'd like to at least see the template used on Extreme exclusives that never qualified for a main series. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 22:32, October 25, 2016 (UTC) :::I see the purpose you mean and whilst I think its better than the "entered" I originally thought, I think it ultimately just turns Series Record into a condensed version of the results page. Series Record should just be "UK championship performance at a glance". Otherwise we might as well be adding bits like "Southern Annihilator" and "Celebrity Special" as well. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 22:54, October 25, 2016 (UTC) I've applied the new Series Record template to the competitors from the first three series, but I've avoided the robots which competed in any series of Extreme, as that requires a decision here. With just two contrasting views, we need more input. Do we use the template which includes Robot Wars Extreme appearances, or not? [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 01:07, October 26, 2016 (UTC) :I'll give this a bump. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 11:54, October 26, 2016 (UTC) ::As we're struggling to gather external opinions, I'll give a few more reasons as to why I wanted to start including Extreme on Series Records. Take a look at B.O.D., they made their ''Robot Wars debut with Night Raider, but the Series Record makes absolutely no mention of it. So while I pointed out the Cataclysmic Variabot example where a robot which fought in two series was treated to have not competed at all, the successors and predecessors to Extreme competitors also ignore their other entries. The New Blood Championship in particular was like a miniature series in and of itself, and that's why I want to see it reflected, and a slight repetition of information on articles like Bigger Brother (which honestly I find quite collective and helpful) is a small price to pay, if you ask me. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'''Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 16:41, October 26, 2016 (UTC) :::Having used both the Series Record and Series Record EX templates yesterday, I can say that these and all the other templates are a definite improvement over the old bullet-points. The EX template is especially helpful, and I agree that Extreme competitor records are something which has been long neglected under the old system. However, I would also like to see templates made for Extreme-only and Nickelodeon series competitors as well, and would like to ask a couple of questions about how we mention Losers' Melees and Playoffs in each competitor's templates, where applicable: :::*Would it be acceptable to mention Losers' Melees if a particular robot lost there after losing the preceding round (e.g. Semi-Final, Round 1 (UK 5-6) or Heat, Round 1 (Dutch 1)), or simply mention it as losing in the latter, as with the case of The Lethal Swan's page? :::*Likewise, if certain robots reached the Playoffs, should we still be referring to their ultimate finishing position in a particular series, like Roadblock in Series 2, or just mention Grand Final, Playoff, as I did for Firestorm's Series Record? :::I would be interested to see what other users think of my feedback on these templates. VulcansHowl (talk) 15:43, October 27, 2016 (UTC) :There's no other way to put this, but Extreme entries have to be mentioned on the pages, and I think that includes robots who didn't compete there. I think the example on Supernova's page would be better if it had the Series Record EX with "Did not enter" in each cell. TBH, when you mentioned Supernova didn't compete in Extreme I was surprised, and it didn't help that Extreme wasn't mentioned. I don't think we necessarily need the individual events entered, just something to say they entered it. The pages already have details of the events entered anyway. The old templates were fine until the 2016 Series happened. If you took a robot like Pitbull, it was a bit awkward writing Series 4-7, 2016-17, so I 100% support this move to a table. Jimlaad43(talk) 16:03, October 27, 2016 (UTC) ::It's not impossible to move the contents of Series Record EX onto Series Record, it would automatically update every article that's currently using the vanilla template, as I've intentionally left everyone that did enter Extreme alone. Is that what people want, or do we only put Extreme data on the applicable articles as I first proposed? I'm somewhat impartial. Additionally, as the opinions are seemingly quite mixed, do we fill the Extreme section with "Entered with X" or the list of competitions? ::@Vulcans The Losers' melee idea has crossed my mind before. Ultimately I left it alone as the Losers Melee was clearly still part of the same round as the eliminators, as the winner would progress to Round 2 in the Dutch Wars. In the UK series, everyone who fell in Round 1 of the semis lost in the losers' melee so it feels quite unnecessary there, but maybe it would be worthwhile for Dutch Series 1, as a lot of robots didn't even make it to that stage. As for the podium example, definitely their finishing position. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast']][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 16:40, October 27, 2016 (UTC) ::I am going to reiterate my concern that Series Record just becomes an abridged version of the Results box. I will concede the ability to include Extreme, but I completely oppose adding in "did not enter" to Extreme for robots like Supernova. If its not mentioned, that should be good enough for everyone to figure out they didn't enter. The robot template, results page and battle history all make mention of this fact. I don't see why everyone is so worked up about when a robot debuted either, that information is clear from the robot template, which links to that robot's page. I want to give the readers some credit. ::I don't see the benefit of adding that robots lost a loser's melee. If they withdrew and were unable to participate, they would have the exact same point reached as if they fought and lost. Again, the results table adequately covers this already. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 20:25, October 27, 2016 (UTC) :::I'll start implementing Series Record EX once we've decided whether to fill it with "Entered with Chompalot" or "Iron Maidens". Don't wanna get ahead of myself before opinion starts to sway. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 20:39, October 27, 2016 (UTC) ::::Losing a losers melee just needs to be the round before, so Semi-Finals, Round 1. Jimlaad43(talk) 21:35, October 27, 2016 (UTC) :::::Entered with Chompalot is all we need. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 22:11, October 27, 2016 (UTC) ::::::I'll start doing it that way very soon if it's what is wanted, but I can't help but find it inconsistent. Continuing Chompalot as the example, it'll say "Heat, Round 1" and "Round 2, Withdrew", before switching just to "Entered with Chompalot", the text we usually use to define the team entering with another robot. That's why I put it in as the events they entered, possibly mentioning how well they did in them. If I'm outnumbered then I'll enter them as Entered with X, though I'd at least like to make an exception for the New Blood competitors, as that was a full tournament with five rounds. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 20:32, October 28, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Well look at someone like Katnip, a robot that overlapped Gribbles with Barnwells. You'd have to say Extreme 2 entered with Pussycat, Katnip and Kitty. What do you do in the alternative. I'm going to keep reiterating that the information is all contained on the results table directly above the Series Record table; in many cases both will be on the viewer's computer screen at the same time. We don't need to overdo the Series Record, which I maintain should be and was always intended as "UK Championship at a glance". As for New Blood, I started writing this comment section with the intention of agreeing, but its not a UK Championship and therefore I don't agree it should be included. An Annihilator has five rounds; heck the Extreme 2 All-Stars had four, and both of those are longer than the Series 1 UK Championship but I don't agree length should be a factor. I've made the compromises I'm willing to vote for now. Toon Ganondorf (t ' :::::::The problem with Katnip wasn't fitting its Extreme 2 performance in there, it's the information that's already there; Stuart Barnwell built Katnip before getting involved with Cold Fusion Team, so Bodyhammer and pre-Series 6 Pussycat shouldn't even be there. I don't think that including Extreme performance levels invalidates your "UK Championship at a glance" idea, because the UK Championship is still listed quite separately above it, Extreme is a sub-section. The performance record may already be in the template above it with different wording, but the same is true for the UK Championship so I fail to see how it differs. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 21:13, October 28, 2016 (UTC) The reason is because the UK Championship is the most important and only annual tournament, its the one we highlight. I maintain that adding complications to that concept is redundant, and I designed this template as an aesthetic and formatting improvement, not to become a second results table where we just list everything. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 21:18, October 28, 2016 (UTC) :Looks like I have to do it this way then, shame. I do intend to list the performance rate of the lower weight classes, however, as those were UK championships too, which are mentioned in the Series 7 section of series records, and the feathers/ants/middles there wouldn't have a main series record to speak of aside from Series 7. [[User:ToastUltimatum|'Toast]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|'Ultimatum']] 10:20, October 31, 2016 (UTC) :::Look if no one else is going to weigh in and it's a 1-1 discussion you and I are going to have to just come to an agreement in the middle. There's no shame in compromise. Toon Ganondorf (t ' 10:50, October 31, 2016 (UTC) :I have finally seen this page again after this discussion keeps getting buried behind hundreds of page edits. There isn't anything wrong with what we have now, where we just say which robots entered the Extreme championships. Adding info about the tournaments entered is too much, as I've said before. I don't see why this has been so much of an issue? The information about Extreme tournaments is in the Results section. That said, if it's supposed to be "at a glance", why don't we move it up the page a bit more, for example, put it after the Design section. It seems silly to have the results and the Series Record, which say the same thing, next to each other. Think of it as an Abstract before a paper. We get to see how well they did at the start, and then know where to scroll down to, before getting the full results later on down the page. Jimlaad43(talk) 11:00, October 31, 2016 (UTC) ::Nah, because I see the Series Record as a directory more than anything, to link all of a team's robots together, which belongs with the templates, external links etc, plus it could make spoilers wishy-washy when it comes to the next series. :::Agree with the current negotiated middle ground, and I think Toast is correct about the location. 'GutripperSpeak 23:57, October 31, 2016 (UTC)